jeregenest

I requested (and received) his permission but probably forgot to tell him I'm local.

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Ooh -- you mean I can actually play in this thing, maybe? (pant pant) Can I?

Actually, one problem is that I'm going to be away most of the time between mid-May and late August. I can come back if the game is, say, every other week, but more than that will be very difficult (it's a 3-hour drive, but I do need to come back occasionally anyway).

Chris

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Consider yourself invited

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OK, from my quick reading:

What are the suits again?

There's two resolution systems: a Whist-like Bridge system for missions and a bidding mechanic for individual actions, correct? What happens if I'm on a mission and I need to do something that would require the bidding mechanic? Can/Will the two systems nest?

Yeah...more play exmaples -- especially of the first bidding system. I understand what Trump is, but the way it gets described in the rules, I'm having difficulty envisioning how it works (other than it appears to stop bidding).

This seems really interesting I think it'd be a lot of fun to watch in play. I really like the "Assert" "Comment" "Concessions" angles as well. Just from playing InSpectres with its "Confessionals" I can tell that those are going to be really great.

later
Tom

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3 Tarot decks?

I'm trying to think of a deck that's playing-card sized so that they can be shuffled. I don't know why they make Tarot decks in Ogre size.

Tom

p.p.s. -- Ooh! how cool would it be to come up with our own spy-centered Tarot deck! Wonder how impossible that would be?

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I've looked for, but haven't found a good tarot deck, which is very disappointing. Probably just end up with one that can be bought on the cheap since multiple versions are to be used. 3 was a rather arbitrary number to be honest.

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For some reason I kinda liked this one.

If this one was finished I bet it'd be pretty good.

Tom

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Those are nice. Maybe I'll have some dsicretioanry spending money (that doesn't go to diapers!) after my birthday to get the first one (though three versions may be a pain...blah! Silly multiple deck needs.)

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If you want to use Rider-Waite decks, I have a little pile of them. Just a little teaser to make you let me in....

Actually, as far as shuffling goes, if you have big hands you can shuffle a single pack pretty easily, but more than that is hard. So you just shuffle each once, cut each into a number of piles equal to the number of players, and then stack up so that there are n piles of mixed provenance. Re-shuffle, and you have a pretty good distribution. If it matters, do it once more and it's really very random.

I believe that US Games Systems makes Rider-Waite decks in poker size, but I don't own any and I don't know how they handle.

Chris

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"There's two resolution systems: a Whist-like Bridge system for missions and a bidding mechanic for individual actions, correct? What happens if I'm on a mission and I need to do something that would require the bidding mechanic? Can/Will the two systems nest?"

The idea is that they do nest. The Action system is for what you do personally, the mission system for what you cause to be done.

I should probably think of a better way to explain that huh?

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Chris asked me why I was going with hands of 15 cards. Shadows in the Fog has 6 cards ad he thinks that 15 is way too huge.

He's probably right.

I think I'm stuck in Bridge/Whist mode.

My desire is to have enough cards for multiple stuff to be happening and for the plaeyrs to have some long range concerns about the cards. So I'm just unsure what the proper number should be.

Thoughts?

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Sounds like it's time for a bit of playtesting.

15 seems like a big number to me. I mean, really, the Majors are all interchangible, you don't have to remember specific meanings, so maybe it's not as bad as I'm thinking but it is a lot of cards.

However, if there's going to be system-within-system, then yeah, I want a large hand.

Failing that, I want to be able to draw new cards into my hand fairly quickly.

What if everyone got a deck and had a hand of 5 cards, but could freely draw from their deck. The times when you would normally get to draw cards under the Shadows system would be changed into times when you could shuffle the discards back into your deck.

Tom

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As I mentioned to Jere, the hand of 5 in the original Shadows was based on the assumption that suits didn't matter. If they do, you'd better have big hands; 15 makes sense to me, but it's a guess. You may find that some suits get used faster than others, though, which may screw up the balance and make some hands simply less good than others in a somewhat drastic sense.

Chris

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bryant

Page 4: "Le Carre's answer is historical research, a resort to the archives."

Perhaps one of the four suits should correspond to History.

Page 8: It would be useful to know the average skill rating in order to understand the conflict resolution system better. That'd give me a better feel for Consequences.

Page 9: Does the GM likewise have a hand of 15 (or 6, or however many) cards?

When does a player take on an NPC? GM-determined?

Page 10: "The GM also determines what suite the action is within." No definition of the suits yet, though.

"Note that no one may bid on the difficulty if the card is a Trump." Does this mean that Trumps are automatic failures, or can the acting player Trump during resolution?

"If a player chooses to bid, she may play one card, stating whether it is a raise, a counter, or a Trump." This counts as the one bid a player is allowed, correct?

Page 11: Skill Rank only matters when making Concessions; it does not apply in any way when the acting player is overcoming the difficulty. Correct?

"magical actions": left over from Shadows in the Fog, I bet.

Page 13: "The second way is play a Major Arcana card an event and record that in the mission notes." Does this mean "play a Major Arcana card and narrate an event," or "play a Major Arcana card when an event occurs"? (I hope the former.)

Should activating the memory of a Major Arcana event grant a bonus card draw?

"operational resources pot" -- is this the same thing as the kitty?

The role of the Bank is played by the GM?

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The difficulty of the trick is set at 9 by the GM playing a 9 of Swords. Connie plays a 5 of Coins. Should this lower the difficulty to 4, rather than to 3 as per the example?

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Page 4: "Le Carre's answer is historical research, a resort to the archives."

Perhaps one of the four suits should correspond to History.

I was sort of thinking history was represented by the Major Arcana. Is that not clear enough?

Does that work?

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bryant

Yeah, it does. And it makes history special if it's the operational element that relies on player memories and notes (which is a spiffy feature in this ruleset).

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>Page 8: It would be useful to know the average skill rating in
>order to understand the conflict resolution system better. That'd
>give me a better feel for Consequences.

I haven't really studied Jere's revised rules, and someone mentioned what I discovered before, which is that I forgot to include the skill values. Terrible -1, Acceptable 0, Good +1, Brilliant +2.

If average difficulty is about 8, and average skill for something you choose to do is probably Good (+1), then:

No bidding: 8-1=7, divided by 2 because no bidding, =4 Concessions (3.5 rounded). If you play any card at this, it won't be too bad.

Bidding: 8-1=7 Concessions, which will almost certainly require a serious card to have a decent success.

>Page 9: Does the GM likewise have a hand of 15 (or 6, or however
>many) cards?

Originally it was 6, based on 5 in the PCs' hands. I'm not sure how this should reasonably change for this revised structure.

>When does a player take on an NPC? GM-determined?

1. When an NPC appears or is created, the GM generally offers it to someone who's sitting on his hands.
2. If you want an NPC that someone else has taken, you can Trump to take it over. Your handling of the NPC must be in accord with your explicit interpretation of the Trump.

Note that NPC's are commonly created by Concessions:
"I succeed in picking the lock, but I think that policeman over there saw me and he's coming over looking rather grim." The policeman has just been invented, so he should be handed to another player to run.

>"Note that no one may bid on the difficulty if the card is a
>Trump." Does this mean that Trumps are automatic failures, or can
>the acting player Trump during resolution?

You can re-Trump, in the original system. In one version (the old rules), the first Trump played is dominant, and the others sort of cause harmonic effects. In a revision I'm working on, the winning Trump is the Last Trump played (partly because I like the phrase "Last Trump", and partly because it gives the PC dominance).

>"If a player chooses to bid, she may play one card, stating
>whether it is a raise, a counter, or a Trump." This counts as the
>one bid a player is allowed, correct?

Correct. You could certainly allow more bids, but I sort of wanted avoid big bidding wars.

>Page 11: Skill Rank only matters when making Concessions; it does
>not apply in any way when the acting player is overcoming the
>difficulty. Correct?

Correct. But most of the time this will be the same thing. It's more efficient and more interesting to take a small number of Concessions than to blow past the difficulty. That saves your big cards for when you need them, and allows you to make the story more interesting by making the situation complicated.

>"magical actions": left over from Shadows in the Fog, I bet.

You betcha.

>Page 13: "The second way is play a Major Arcana card an event and
>record that in the mission notes." Does this mean "play a Major
>Arcana card and narrate an event," or "play a Major Arcana card
>when an event occurs"? (I hope the former.)

The former, definitely.

>Should activating the memory of a Major Arcana event grant a bonus card draw?

The thing is that playing Major Arcana requires Interpretation, at least in the old system, so that you're rewarding people for getting in on the act and making things interesting even when it's not their thing, as opposed to sitting on their thumbs and waiting for "their turn."

>The role of the Bank is played by the GM?

Very good question. Jere is borrowing from a later version of Shadows, in which the Bank is distributed by bidding. I don't know whether GM-ing is distributed here.

--

Just my $.02 based on the old edition. Most of this is because the first edition is full of small lacunae and errors; some are from translation to Jere's new game.

Chris

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Okay, I forgot the suits. So lets look at them

Wands
Key words: Work and social activities
Element of Fire: Action, enthusiasm, courage, zeal, passion, enterprise
Zodiacal Signs: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius

Cups
Key words: Love and emotions
Element of Water: Emotions, intuition, subconscious, memories, birth, marriage
Zodiacal Signs: Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces

Pentacles
Key word: Money and health
Element of Earth: Stability, dependability, reliability, material possessions, health matters
Zodiacal Signs: Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn

Swords
Key words: Problems and troubles
Element of Air: Mental attitudes, discrimination, strife, adaptability
Zodiacal Signs: Gemini, Libra, Aquarius

Now, I previously (http://www.livejournal.com/users/jeregenest/81655.html) broke down the possibilities to four activity areas, often referred to as the “elements of intelligence”: collection, analysis, covert action and counterintelligence.

Collection seems to be Cups, Analysis as Swords, Pentacles as Counterintelligence which leaves Covert Action as Wands. Could work.

Or I could go humint, elint, bureaucracy and covert action.

Hrm….

Thoughts?

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bryant

Hm...

What's the difference between Collection and Covert Action? Is Collection more elint?

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Intelligence can be divided according to the type of activity involved into four parts, often referred to as “elements of intelligence”: collection, analysis, covert action and counterintelligence.

Collection refers to the gathering of raw data, through espionage; technical means (photography, interception of electronic communications, and other methods involving technology); exploitation of “open source”; or in any other manner. While collection is obviously fundamental to intelligence work, opinions differ regarding the relative importance of the various methods.

However good the collected information, however, I almost never speaks for itself. In other words, some analysis of the information is necessary if it is to be useful to policy makers and military commanders. In the vast majority of cases, the collected information is fragmentary, ambiguous, and susceptible to widely divergent interpretations. Thus, the process of analyzing the available information to make judgments about the capabilities, intentions and actions of another party is a vital part of the intelligence process. Even more difficult is the process of forecasting the future capabilities, intentions and actions of the other party.

Covert action differs from the other elements of intelligence in that while the others are concerned with seeing and safeguarding information, covert action seeks to influence events directly. In terms of intensity, covert action can range from persuasion or propaganda to paramilitary action; it has been described as “an activity midway between diplomacy and war.”

In its most general sense, counterintelligence seeks to protect against any harm that may be inflicted by hostile intelligence services.

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bryant

OK. Then I like:

Collection -- Cups
Analysis -- Swords
Counterintelligence -- Pentacles
Covert Action -- Wands

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editswlonghair.livejournal.com

My 2¢

I would say not have counterint be a suit- that's covered better as a skill set or role. Not every character plays a counterint role, and these cards would not be useful.

I'd go with breaking up collection into 2 suits- humint and sigint/analysis, and have bureaucracy and covert as the other two suits.

Going by a CF paradigm:

humint is your emotional suit
sigint/analysis is your knowledge suit
Bureaucray is your social suit
Covert Action is your physical suit

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Counterintelligence is this huge bundle of activities, and more important its a mindset, which is why I like it being a suit.

Bureaucracy could make a good skill under Counterintelligence....

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Okay in Shadows in the Fog:

Skills are rated at Terrible, Acceptable, Good, and Brilliant. You must have one Brilliant and two Terrible skills; you may not start with more than three Brilliant and four Terrible skills. Average for most skills is Acceptable.

Now I'm pretty sure Terrible is -1, Acceptable is a zero, Good is +1 and Brilliant is +2 . But I can't find that spelled explictely in the rules. I find this system a lot more graceful than Castle Falkenstein's.

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